Seidokaikan vs world Oyama 1991 challenge

From the 1991 challenge event between seidokaikan karate and the world Oyama karate organization (both offshots from kyokushin).
This was one of the first of the of the seidokaikan challenge event that would eventually grow into the K-1 kickboxing tournament in 1993.

Final bout of the day. A young Masaaki Satake (later k-1 and pride legend) vs a aging Willy Williams (former kyokushin legend, but here member of world oyama).

Classic fullcontact knockdown karate rules =no punches or elbows to the head, only below the neck.
Kicks and knees anywhere.

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Автор rallyivan1234 ( назад)
Willie Williams vs Nobuaki Kakuda /watch?v=3rWyNokrCMk min. 0:53:34

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
Regarding open hand strikes, I suspect that was some kind of local dojo
rule for safety (to prevent broken fingers). Striking with a open hand IS
allowed The rules specifically states that any strike imaginable is allowed
unless listed as a foul, and open hand techniques are not listed as fouls
in any way. However PUSHING with a open hand is banned (apparently pushing
with a closed fist is ok). And a few months ago IKO1 changed their rules to
specifically allowed pushing with one open hand.

Автор rallyivan1234 ( назад)
They are 14 years apart, Satake was much younger.

Автор HAGON007 ( назад)

Автор tayksy ( назад)
if you hit your opponent with open hand with the palm of your hand facing
your opponent this would be considered an "open hand push" which is
forbidden in most tournaments. also I've never seen a fighter use a shuto
ushi technique (or any other open hand strikes) in a knockdown fight, so it
might not even be allowed.

Автор SOAP X ( назад)
these guys are the real deal

Автор MrSinniunoman (1537 лет назад)
stupid and fake fight....

Автор tayksy ( назад)
how about both? the problem with face punches and gloves is that the fight
is then 90% about punching to the head, removing the amazing skills needed
to knock people out without relying on face punches. It's good to see both,
and a few Kyokushin organisations do both types (bare knuckle without head
punches called knockdown, and then gloved fights with head punches)

Автор tayksy ( назад)
it makes the fight a lot more skilled and hardcore to fight bare knuckle
and without face punching. It's a lot harder to knock someone out with body
punches or kicks than to knock out with a face punch. There are A LOT of
knockouts without head punches, fighters train amazing kicks to finish the
job. Search for the video "This is knockdown karate" in youtube search ;)

Автор rotarymenace ( назад)
@kolsyrade thats good, because the more i learn katas, i feel it makes more
sense when u are advanced. i have been training in iko1 for a little more
than 5 years. and i appreciate katas more now ;)

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
@rotarymenace. Sorry but Seidokan and shidokan both have traditional kata.
fewer than kyokushin, but they still have them. If you watch my vid
"Seidokaikan Karate demo by Nobuaki Kakuda" you get to see Kakuda do a
seidokan kata at a demo (apparently they reserve trad kata training for
advanced grades, so lower grades seldom do them), and if you look up
youtube user shidopanther, he has several videos where he shows shidokan
kata (they teach trad kata from beginner grades and on).

Автор rotarymenace ( назад)
@MikeKSG I know that the biggest difference is the director or the person
who is in charge of the organization. I learned that in seidokaikan or
shidokaikan, there is no kata. But I maybe wrong on that.

Автор rotarymenace ( назад)
@MikeKSG seido kaikan is a branch off kyokushin. seido kaikan started k1

Автор psychedashell ( назад)
@neijiaboy Some do. They call it an animal day.

Автор psychedashell ( назад)
@kolsyrade Most knockdown schools do train with gloves on and off to keep
the head defences fast and proper, some even hold internal kickboxing-ish
tournaments. But bare-knuckle is where they stand apart so that's where
they put the most emphasis.

Автор hondaefsd ( назад)
@osensei2987. I ran out room I can fill the whole page your a racist and
you full of shit

Автор hondaefsd ( назад)
@osensei2987. your full of shit any one of these guy would drop you with a
body shot even if they let you punch the face and couldn't if you don't
like the rules then why are you watching this and there's alot of asian
fighters a the top level in kickboxing mma and boxing nonito. Hioki hatsu.
Pacqiuao. Toshiak nishioka yoshihiro kamegai yuya yamamoto. Buakaw masato
machida aoki. Kameda. Brothers. Okami. Mizugaki. Hiroyuki takeya. Daisuke.
Naito. Hozumi hasegawa. Half of the fighters in k1 max

Автор brazilianspiritzz ( назад)
@isao222 it's more practical than gloved sparring. The mechanism of
bareknuckle punch is different from that of gloved. No form of any sparring
in any martial arts would be 100% practical unless you fight with risk of

Автор Shmalentine ( назад)
I didn't know Kimbo Slice started out in Kyokushin. :))))

Автор nemesio leonardo trincado vivar ( назад)
¿ Y le llaman karate a eso ? ¿Dònde està la tecnica?¿Para eso entrenaron
màs de 5 años y obtuvieron cinta negra? Creo que perdieron su tiempo,

Автор hitman007Japan ( назад)

Автор Lionsblood ( назад)
He's just attacking his legs man. I know that if I were Willy I'd be pissed
off LoL.

Автор Logan Bruneau ( назад)
@delxforce When I fought in Japan my Kyokushin Sensei insisted I use Ippon
Ken (One-Knuckle Fist with the middle knuckle protruding.) It is legal and
very painful in full-contact bare-knuckle competition, if you can condition
your fist and excecute the technique properly.

Автор CTuxford ( назад)
I'm glad things have moved on since then. What a meat--fest. Distancing was
all crap for kicking and the no head punching allows for the endless
body-shots with hands at super-short range. I can appreciate the toughness
of the fighters, but strategy was pretty non-existant. Hit, hit , hit, then
hit some more until the fittest toughest guy wins. Yawn.

Автор WildDanHibiki ( назад)
geez louise did his teeth get knocked out at the end?

Автор osensei2987 ( назад)
@blugularis Show me a venue anywhere in the world where you see a fucking
JAP in the finals! Only in Japan! And only w/ bullshit rules! No face
punches allowed and bullshit like that! Then they come up w/ a bunch of
fucking excuses for not allowing face punches! Oh, "It's too dangerous, too
many injuries because of bare knuckles!". Well put on some gloves mofo! Oh,
"Gloves are not realistic enough!". One excuse after the next! Fact is face
punches = JAPS eliminated! That's the real reason!

Автор osensei2987 ( назад)
@blugularis First of all, I would never step in the ring in the first place
w/o being in tip top shape. So u can just STFU! Secondly, KK rules are BS!
I would never enter in such a tournament were the rules are rigged in favor
of a bunch of fucking JAPS that can't fight worth shit! Let them come into
my world so can jab,cross and hook their asses to death. Let's see if they
can stay inside and pound away when their eyes are cut, jaws and noses are
broken and they're bleeding everywhere!

Автор osensei2987 ( назад)
@DrainExpress U can look long and hard and u will be hard pressed to find
an Asian in martial artist that holds any type of championship on a
professional level. To be perfectly fair u have to give respect to guys
like Sakuraba, and Cung Le and Paquioa. Those guys are the exceptions. The
moment u hit most Asian fighters in the face it's over man! The Japanese
being the nationalistic assholes that they are cannot stomach karate w/o
Japanese on top. That's why face punches aren't allowed!

Автор blugularis ( назад)
@osensei2987 Willie has more cardio than you ever dreamed of, try entering
the Kyokushin-kai open. His opponent had masterful Jodan Mawashi, but
Willie's use of Maei and blocking made it so he didn't score. I would love
to see you try to Jodan Mawashi Willie Williams so you could shut that big
trap mouth of yours while you are sucking for air!

Автор blugularis ( назад)
@Kinghercules yes, he is Willie Williams trained in NYC, with Oyama, under
Kyokushin-kai school, then Shigeru Oyama broke from Mas Oyama (no relation).

Автор OhNoPaypal ( назад)
So this is how K1 started. Interesting.

Автор sapporo01 ( назад)
Yes, he is in the movie.. Also his instructors in the movie too. That fight
event was beginning of K-1... Who knows that? Most of you are don't know
anything about k1history..

Автор Kinghercules ( назад)
Itsnt that the Black guy in Fighting Black Kings?

Автор osensei2987 ( назад)
So many stripes, so little talent. Knock down tournaments like this reduce
karate to slop! Willie's had no cardio! He was basically just one big
makiwara. His sheer size is what kept him in the match till the finish. If
Willie's opponent had a decent jodan mawashi geri the Willie would've been
knocked out! HAHAHA!

Автор Earl James ( назад)
Yes you are so right kolsyrade but what is not spoken of is that Sensei was
in a car accident shortly before the challenge took place and was still
able to do as well as he did. Yes he was well past his prime as a fighter
but as a person I found him to be a gentle and kind man who cared deeply
for others as all Karate practitioners seek for their lives.

Автор edlo123 ( назад)
most people in a street fight get suckered punched in the face. happens all
the time. and when it is a martial artist that gets suckered punched, his
ego, and technigues go right out the window. and then the fight winds up on
the floor.

Автор DrainExpress ( назад)
fussellmuscle, you should have posted your opinion calling me an "idiot"
publicly, not sending it to my inbox. Let's share it with everyone.
Actually, it's not my original opinion but something I learned from my
sensei who just happens to be 4th dan in kyokushin.I am 3rd kyu. Since you
say you have problems with landing a fast punch to the face you are
obviously not a fighter. May I suggest you get back back to your native
environment - video games in the basement. Stop talking.

Автор fussellmuscle ( назад)
@DrainExpress A punch to the face doesn't take much skill???? You're a
idiot. A punch to the face is the easiest to dodge, making it harder to
land. The body is a much bigger target, and you can't move it as quickly.
Shop around, and purchase a clue

Автор moomyskim69 ( назад)
Cause if punches to faces were allowed KOs will be too fast. Principle here
is SPIRIT, PURE RESISTANCE of the Body. Seeing whos got the iron Body. Yes
kicks are allowed but its harder to put them on faces then punches. As u
can see even with kicks this Fight took like 7 min Bro!!!!! Imagine Punches
on your Body for 7 mins!!!!! TRUE SPIRIT!!! OSU!!!!!! XD

Автор Ruben1994OL ( назад)
@DrainExpress The reason I heard was that it was too dangerous to be
exposed to barefisted punching over a long time and sometimes the outcome
was fatal, so they had to do SOMETHING to make it safer, but just as
"hardcore" as it was, so they didn't want gloves or protective gear. They
just killed the facepunching.

Автор DrainExpress ( назад)
fussellmuscle, because it is very easy to land a punch to the face - this
does not require that much skill anyway. Had the bare - fisted punches to
the face been allowed the fight would last probably only a few seconds and
there would be nothing to watch. There would be no show...

Автор fussellmuscle ( назад)
Why is a kick to the face O.K., but a punch no?!?! The asian guy would have
been KTFO when threw those leg kicks,a nd kept getting punched hat heads
shots been allowed.

Автор neijiaboy ( назад)
I think the Japanese guy has more refined technique whereas the American
guy is just bigger. Big disadvantage for the Japanese when you're
practicing a style that has filtered out lots of the more effective moves
and is only limited to a few moves tailored for competition only. I think
it would make more sense to just wear full protection and go back to the
more traditional styles like Okinawan Karate.

Автор BadBlueBoy213 ( назад)
willie's technique sucks, he's just strong and tall

Автор Santiago Vasquez ( назад)
Great fight! Willy Williams along with William Oliver (RIP) was one of the
first legends of Kyokushinkaikan in the USA.

Автор tooom ( назад)
hollyfield's here.

Автор alex doda ( назад)
my opinion, the most efective way to win a fight is to be simple and
direct, we see many fights with great fighters they hit and kick each other
for a very long time, now they can put a man to the ground with one fist or
kick, but that never happens cause they spread their energy into a long
fight, instead in very short simple direct and strong ones

Автор aiyer1989 ( назад)
Dissapitation. If you do not have enough strength to direct the force, the
power just dissapitates. Imagine a heavy block of foam coming at you at
high speed. The force of it would be big but it wouldn't deal a lot of
damage. The same happens with a punch that doesn't hold strength. Another
similarity would be a whip and a bat hitting you with the same force. The
whip would deal much less damage as the force dissapitates. And yes, as an
engineering student I have taken physics.

Автор aiyer1989 ( назад)
Honnestly, I think you need to go train a lot more instead of believing in
myths. While theoretically it would be possible to kill someone with one
blow or kick, that really doesn't happen in reality. Secondly, all martial
arts demand physical strength. Without strength, a punch or kick is
useless. Thirdly, if you only practice kata, kihon and kihon kumité, you'll
be lost the first time you have to fight or even really spar as you are in
no way prepared for the unpredictabilty of a fight.

Автор Győző Szikszai ( назад)
You think,that is so easy to kill with one blow??? :)) I tell you a
secret... EVERYTHING depends on your opponent... Maybe you can take him out
with one strike... but it's allso possible that after 3 rounds he'll knock
you down cause you made the first mistake in that fight ;) Think about
this... Osu!!

Автор Martial Larchez ( назад)
I think the same, amrtial arts originated (no matter ma from no matter what
country) to fight against other warriors when you where weaponless, but on
a trained warrior, one blow will not always ensure you a clean victory.

Автор Martial Larchez ( назад)
... Yet i don't know if in real combat situation i'll be able to use them
in a correct manner. You mentionned shoalin, but they have a lot of
physical exercise before even starting to train tao and technicks. I hope
you can understand what i wanna say.

Автор Martial Larchez ( назад)
that's why i precised traditionnal karate, where the emphasis was put
mainly on kata and kihon kumite where you hold back and stop after one
possibly fatal blow (shotokan, gojuryu, shitoryu, nahate, etc...) not
kyokushin, seidokaikan, shidokan, etc..which put the emphasis on fist
fighting, power and stamina. In tradi karate i trained to use my fingers to
attacks kyusho, but i alwas had to hold back because it's dangerous....

Автор Martial Larchez ( назад)
it's same as in traditionnal karate. I have but one question to that: If
you always hold back, never train to go through with your strike, how can
you be effectiv when you need to? Kind regards

Автор librexpresion ( назад)
the black guy has lost two theet... O_o

Автор ironham23 ( назад)
what I don't understand is that people complain about karate is ineffective
and that you could just poke a man in the eye in a real fight it is a
contest of pride and honor to beat a man fairly is a sign of respect for
ones self and the other. In todays mma it is no longer a contest of the
best fighters of their style more of a combination of wrestling and boxing
few mma fighters focus purely on their own style but borrow extensively
from others

Автор lisberto ( назад)
what an ugly fight. both are too bad.

Автор laux33 ( назад)

Автор eugene chok ( назад)
not true 2 street fights i had have ended on the ground both i ended taking
the guys back both times ended with a rear naked choke now had i not had
grappling they prob would have mounted me both were bigger then me when you
take someones back and they dont know how to defend, not at any time i
could have gouged there eyes if i wanted to im very glad i knew how to
grapple more then joe average tho i still am not good at ne waza at al mind
you now im older and smart i would have avoid the fight

Автор eugene chok ( назад)
need a bas rutten liver punch dangadadangadadangada

Автор 454545046 ( назад)
i wouldn't mind competing in this

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
you can use open hand techniques in any knockdown karate version.
Kyokushin, seidokaikan, enshin, ashihara -whatever. As long as you dont
target forbidden areas in knockdown (face, throat & groin) you can use
whatever punch you think you can pull off. And they are formally trained in
all the styles. You dont see them used in competitions very often, but they
ARE allowed.

Автор delxforce ( назад)
The World Oyama branch does have open hand strikes, though I can't speak
for kyokushin as a whole. They are allowed to be used in formal sparring
exercises, but it really isn't a good idea from a "no injury" standpoint of
training to allow their use during free fighting.

Автор Alessandro Tondo ( назад)
I answered to someone that told that satake is n° 1 Japanese fighter. (I
can agree if he says, 1° japanese striker)..(that not also true!) But the
word fighter, means: "Able to win against anyone other in anyway". That's
not true. MMA is the answer ! Where you have striking and grappling skills
together. (but do you know something about MMA!?)

Автор Alessandro Tondo ( назад)
Hahaha, why you dont take a look of Satake in MMA!?

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
Putting on gloves may allow headpunches, but they make bodypunches almost
worthless (atleast in comparison to bareknuckle). And putting on boxing
gloves makes it more or less into kickboxing. Anyway, seidokaikan rules
says that if there is no winner after 2 extra rounds, they put on boxing
gloves and basically start kickboxing. But there are plenty of knockouts in
trad knockdown karate.

Автор blugularis ( назад)
seems like he did not do much in low kicks, wonder how come?

Автор KamenHanya ( назад)
considering the fact that williams was much past his prime, I'd say he did
extremely well and particularly against a fighter such as satake, who at
that time, was at the peak of his career. stamina was definitely a
factor,but williams is a true legend and he represented.

Автор Eli Johnson ( назад)
Satake was lucky Williams was not in his prime. Shihan Ninomiya, founder of
Enshin Karate, sparred with Williams in preparation for the first world
tournament. Ninomiya said the Williams punches felt like brick hitting his

Автор hardkicka (174 года назад)
Thank you very much for loading this...great fight and great spirit from
the two fighters ! Willie Williams will always be one of the Kyokushin

Автор brazilianspiritzz ( назад)
You're damn right. I think the best way is to experience different rules.
Bare hands but no face as in Kokyusin, and also Kickboxing or boxing with
gloves with face punch allowed. It will give you little more realistic

Автор DunJen_Knives ( назад)
i think if the black guy was a little fitter..more stamina he would have
done better.. nice upload osu!

Автор chavalote ( назад)
The "black guy" is a kyokushin practicioner. See the "dan" lines in his

Автор chavalote ( назад)
Yes, there are not many of him in Youtube.

Автор chavalote ( назад)

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
the rules forbids fist and elbows to the head (kicks and knees are
allowed). Is it 100% realistic? no, but then no fightsport allows
everything. Is this more or less "practical" han judo not allowing
leglocks? Or boxing not allowing kicks? Or thaiboxing allowing clinch but
no headbutts/throws? Knockdown karate is a sport with rules banning a lot
of what is taught in the arts it is based on (kyokushin, seidokaikan, world
oyama and others). All fightsport rules have realism flaws. live with it

Автор Sam Yoon ( назад)
Not trying to disrespect but this looks like a joke.. and black guy seems
like he has no back ground of martial art.

Автор Michin co ( назад)
I know people on the video. I know Willie Williams personally, and his
sensei, and Satake from my old school in Japan called Seido kaikan.

Автор egnuldt candy ( назад)
Thanks for this update, how did you hear about this?

Автор old0351 ( назад)
Very good classic fight! Satake showed why he was the rising star of
Seidokaikan. But I have to give credit to Willie Williams. He held his own,
considering at the time of the fight he was 40yrs old, while Satake was 25.
I tip my hat to both of these legends...OSU!

Автор Flyingtart ( назад)
Both Midori and Matsui are great so why cant they just rule together? Thats
what I mean. Why mess up and split up and go to court? Peace in world! One

Автор Flyingtart ( назад)
I however dont care much, Midori or matsui... whatever, same karate. Havent
even met them so I dont know.

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
no he has not won any court case. IKO2 just decided to cut their losses &
get out of the whole mess by changing name to WKO, without actually being
forced by anyone to do so. Well, except by the need to profile itself away
from the 3-4 other groups using the name, and to get away from the high
expenses required to continue the legal battle, I guess. Shortly after that
Masui LOST the courtcase over the copyrights and names against two other
kyokushin groups. Last I heard he was appealing it AGAIN

Автор Flyingtart ( назад)
Well but many IKO1 guys are upset at the split. Personally, I dont care
much. But I read somewere that Matsui won the battle of kyokushin at the
court of law. Things like that, when 2 parts cant decide who will get the
right of inheritance. I wish that mas Oyama would live forever. Things
would be easier then. Sad :(

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
yes I do train, under Midori, so I dont take very well to you saying he
"betrayed" Matsui. Matsui was asked to step down as kancho (temporarily
while they awaited the result of the legal trial over the discrepancies of
the will), by a majority of the japanese branchchiefs, headed by Nishida
and Sanpei supported by the widow oyama. The split occured when matsui
refused to obey their decision. Midori was not even in any position of
leadership in iko2 until about 10 years after the iko1/2 split

Автор Flyingtart ( назад)
Ok thx now I know some history! Almost the same with IKO 2 when midori
betrayed Matsui. But I dont care, Oyama karate was good for the spreading
of kyokushin. And Matsui is my kancho. Do you train any type of kyokushin?

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
Masutatsu Oyama created kyokushin. Shigeru oyama created World Oyama karate
after he had been expelled from kyokushin. The stated reason was Shigerus
debt and buissness deals with the moon cult (run by Sun Myung Moon) where
he provided kyokushin trained body guards, and the negative effect that
association had on kyokushin. The real reason was politics, rivalry and
internal power struggles.

Автор boxsterwelby ( назад)
Not to be a keyboard fighter, but I do fight competetively, although, I'm
not a pro. My point is that the sports where you train for real combat
opposed to traditional non scientific training are superior. Mma proved
that in the first ufc. And it had been proven in brazil with vale tudo long
before that. The brazilians dominated american mma because they already new
in the early 90's what worked.

Автор Flyingtart ( назад)
A boxer cant fight for real, only for sport.

Автор Flyingtart ( назад)
Why did Oyama make world Oyama karate? To me the only Oyama karate is

Автор Michin co ( назад)
willie is now living in West Virginia, and he is with the organization
called "shihouken" in NY(white plains NY under shihan Sylvester, and
shihouken became independent from USA Oyama back in 1997! Willie still
trains, but, haven't seen him since 2001! I've heard that he is now in

Автор SwhereNthing ( назад)
Believe or not, boxing is nothing against martial arts. Yeah and that
challenge was in the year 1991! Not nowadays! The rules are different!

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
different sports, different skills. Boxers get wasted in knockdown karate,
just as knockdown karate fighters get wasted in boxing. But the american
(williams), really should have retired before this fight. He was great in
the mid/late 70ies, but by this fight in 91 he was simply not the
unstoppable powerhouse he was in 75.

Автор boxsterwelby ( назад)
this fighting is ridiculous. A boxer with six months experience would
neutrilize the american.

Автор goraisan ( назад)
That kind of fight takes a lot of strenght and stamina!

Автор OuterHeavenX ( назад)
That was a good fight. Nice and clean.

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
He used to be with Shigeru. But I have no clue about where he is now, or if
he still does karate at all.

Автор blugularis ( назад)
Is Willie (New York) go with Shigeru (world) Oyama, or is he Seidokan? He
used to be Kyokushin-kai. Does anyone know?

Автор kolsyrade ( назад)
Only ones I know of are a few documentaries of the 1&2 kyokushin open world
tournaments (1975&1979), where he participated.

Автор emiliokohn ( назад)
Do you know where can i find more videos from Willi Williams ??

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