Thanks for your comment! Yes, this 308 was DI, and it has since been replaced by... you guessed it, a P308. I've got around 800 rounds or so through the P308 and it is a terrific rifle, you would be VERY happy with it. And if there are any issues (I had an accuracy issue with a P415 at one point), they are spectacular about making it right. Shoot safe, and enjoy!
6.5Grendel is by far better and beats even 7.62x51 at 1000Meter, in energy, accuracy, less wind drift, better penetration shape.
And high end 5.56x45 have similar bc to 6.8 while beeing much lighter with less recoil, more magazin capacity, less bolt wear. Technically a 5.56 bullet have the capability of having 90 grain. 6,8mm with such a short bullet and TERRIBLE ogive is just useless compared to 6.5 and 5.56.
+allMTN Yes and no, something like Polymer Telescopic Cased 6.2mm will be more usefull, 6.2 in a high end shape with perfect ogive, pointy boattail, and maximum lenght therefor max wheight and bc.
6.5 (6.7mm) is far better than 6.8 (twice the energy at range), but still far from optimum. Like heavy case, to thick case and low mag capacity. To thick and short bullet, when used with longer max bc bullets the velocity drops far too much. And still not that good aerodynamicly shaped.
Have a great day.
Yes, 6.5 Grendel is a terrific long-range cartridge. I hope it continues to gain popularity; it appears the cost is coming down and availability is a bit more regular.
peaches , pears , apples ... all compared with each other ?
allMTN the best thing about the video is that you didn't have to watch past the into cuz you summed it up straight away. It's all user preference. The whole shooting guns was pointless. We all know what bullets do
Yeah, you're right... These have nothing in common... It's not like they are all direct impingement, AR-pattern rifles with 16" barrels chambered in 3 out of the 5 most popular calibers for this segment or something. That would have been a reasonable comparison. (Oh wait...)
What about the sig sauer m400 enhanced nato? Any complaints
+James Campbell I have a Sig M400 Enhanced, and I think it is a good rifle if you can get a deal on it. The retail price is slightly higher than I'd expect for a rifle that offers what it offers, but in general, it's a pretty basic, reliable, accurate rifle.
This is why I want a .308! :)
Quit calling it assault rifles. It's just a rifle.
FYI: A semi rifle I.E AR 15s, "Barrett Rec 7, and all other rifles that are semi. An Assault Rifle has the following semi auto, 3 round burst and or full auto (M16 A1). Which only the Arm Forces have and of course there are the full autos, is as it sound like. Hold the trigger down and it fires until either the belt, mag is used up or you release the trigger. All Weapon systems have safe. So. that's just common knowledge.
Molon you are correct. for myself protection i have a Barrett Rec 7 (6.68)/ AR 15 (5.56 NATO) (depends on which I feel like using that day and a glock 40C hunting (water foul) 20 gauge & big game 30-06 custom built.
5.56 for fun / tactical situations for low recoil and penetration. .308 for hunting because of knock down power and you only need one shot. I dont know much about the 6.8 SPC so i do not know when that would be good. Either way, a bullets a bullet. If you know what your doing they are all lethal and its just a personal preference. Cool vid.
Agreed, they are all fantastic weapons but I still vote for 5.56. I love the way you can continually hit the target in such a small group. They are the light, and my wife has a shoulder problem and can fire the 5.56 without hurting herself. I would love to have all three if my retirement fixed income would allow though.
User preference? what about victims preference...I think victims choose the .223
For hunting purposes, and no shots beyond 300 yards, would you recommend the 6.8 or .308? I have been debating a 6.8 build, but I'm concerned about knock-down power. Also debated the .308, but concerned about weight. Any help would be appreciated.
This will obviously depend on the game. White tail and smaller, you'd be fine with a 6.8 or .300 BLK. Anything larger, and it may be worth going with .270 win or .308.
All great platforms. I enjoyed watching this. It just reminds me that when I need real knockdown power (for elk and moose, etc), I go for my FN FAL. I used it on a deer with 165 gr. Hornady SST and it blew in one shoulder blade, through both lungs, and out the other shoulder blade at 125 yards. I decided I needed something with less over penetration value, so I ordered a DSArms ZM4 in .300 AAC Blackout. Can't wait to try it out -- with and without the can.
Someone found in K-Berg's house at night, will be found there in the morning!
Try the 5.56 with something other than an FMJ round. Something that expands will give a much better impact. That being said, the 7.62x51 has double the muzzle energy of the 5.56 and is only going 300 fps slower with a bullet 130% heavier than the 5.56.
+allMTN Ya that literally changes everything right there..
You are exactly right... The fact that the 7.62 was a soft point, and the others were FMJs makes a significant difference, even in water. Great point, you know your stuff. Thanks for watching, and for your comment.
Each round was designed for a different purpose You really can't do a legitimate comparison.
The 7.62 x 51 and the 5.56 x 45 were both designed for the exact same purpose: the cartridge for the primary weapon system to be used by infantry. 6.8 was originally designed for a consideration as a replacement for the 5.56 cartridge... so to say that they were designed for different purposes is inaccurate. Now, if you're saying that they 'serve' different functions today, I'd agree, and that is sort of what this video was made to show.
Thanks for the video! I have both a 5.56/.223 build and a 6.8 build near completion. I'm familiar with 5.56 but not 6.8. I can't wait to see what 6.8 is like. Entertaining video, really makes me want an AR-10 also. On a side note, I couldn't decide if your face reminds me more of Lou Ferrigno or Vitor Belfort so I've decided to think of you as Lou Belfort, friend of all 2A supporters:) Thanks!
allMTN Im not sure. Id take my piston driven Ruger SR762 over all your choices. More reliable and a much less maintenance.
HA! Thanks for watching, and for the comment. Yeah, I've heard Lou Ferrigno before; Vitor Belfort is a new one on me, though. A quick recommendation, if you do decide to add a .308 AR to your collection, I'd recommend chrome / treated BCG and/or gas piston. Standard BCGs in a DI gun get extremely dirty and hot very quickly... FYI. Enjoy, and be safe as always!
my opinion, the 6.8 is a great round. the 308 is a bit overkill, and the 223 is too small. Especially out of a shorter barrel. the 223 is a low pressure round, needing a slower burning powder, and a longer barrel to get its steam built up. the 6.8 can handle much higher chamber pressure, and perform great out of a close quarters designed weapon, and has a .270 diameter bullet vs a .223 diameter bullet to boot!!!
Currently, the military has dropped all use of the 6.8 SPC. It is a great round within 400m, light recoil, accurate, reliable, and all around well designed. The only down fall is the logistical problem the cartridge presents to NATO. If the U.S. military switched to it, what would the rest of NATO do? I think it's best for us to stay with the 5.56 NATO for the time being.
The 6.8mm SPC is an excellent "in between" type of round. It's too bad that the military can't afford to upgrade all their rifles to this caliber. Is the military at least using this on a limited basis?
Think about making that new build a 6.8 and look at ARP. I went through same process as you. Got into shooting AR's in military then bought a 5.56. It is great, but, now building a 6.8 especially LWRC/Federal/ATK & Magpul got together. The 6.8x43 will be the next great thing. Then I build my 7.62x51 or .308 AR-10 or buy from Windham if a good price
My perfect AR would be a bullpup design with a 20" barrel, then chamber it for a cartridge like the 6.8 and whip an optic on there, preferably 4x, that's what I'm used to.
i doubt he lived to, but he didn't die immediately, he could still pick up a gun, and shoot back
doubt the dude lived....LOL
Absolutely, and thanks for commenting. There is a lot of information out there, both good and bad, about firearms and calibers, from a lot of different sources ranging from ballistic testing to video games... it can be tough to sift through it all. Ultimately, a modern high-velocity boat-tail cartridge is a catastrophic projectile, even in full metal jacket. In JHP, or soft or ballistic tip, the ballistic effects are compounded. And, as you say, you can't go wrong with big bore! ; )
I appreciate the feedback, and you may very well be right (didn't know about the tumble thing), but as a personal choice, I would still use the larger caliber, if for any reason to be safe then sorry.
P.S. thank you for presenting an effective counter argument without resorting to insulting, it's nice to be able to enjoy an argument
You bring up a very important point. Let me preface my response by saying I am an NRA instructor, a combat veteran, and I teach an AR-15 course. Now, while I am grateful for your friend's service, this story is most certainly inaccurate. It is very difficult to tell if you hit someone, and no human could be hit my 9 rounds of 5.56 inside 800 yds and survive, much less run off, unless they all hit ballistic plates. The round always tumbles due to the 1 degree yaw & 1:7 twist rate. He missed. : /
the biggest issue for me with is that the 5.56 doesn't have much stopping power, yes it's speed gives it roughly as much energy as the slower, heavier rounds, but it has a tendency to pass through the target without delivering as much energy (unless it tumbles.) one of my friends i know who went to afghanistan shot a guy 9 times the m16 5.56, but the guy got up and ran off, that is far less likely to happen with a heavier round. in a life/death struggle, give me a 7.62
Yes, of course. Any high-powered rifle should exit, the comparison was to see what the exit hole looked like, and 7.62 was quite an exit hole.
Wait did 5.56, 6.8, and 7.62 exit the book?
I'm not sure I'd call 5.56mm "spray and pray", the AR-15 is generally 2.0 MOA or better... extremely accurate out to 500m, as is the 6.8. 6.8 is definitely a great hunting round, as you say.
556 is a spray and pray gun (within reason) 762 is mean at any distance as far as recoil and performance goes and 6.8 is a great hunt round for everything from deer to hogs to cariabu. I hope to find another 6.8 soon nearly the distance of the 308 by 50-75 yards and recoils nice closer to the 556 than the 308 for me thats why i like them better
CrimsinTiger X how about how much ammo you can carry? you can carry way more 556 than 762 in a shtf situation
556 in the city, 762 in the jungle. And everything else is bullshit.
6.8 mm velocity and power..why not all guns use 6.8 ?..it is special USa guns ?
Cool video. I own a Colt 6920, great little rifle. I plan on building a 6.8 for my 2nd AR.
availability and the added hurdle of what is legal in NJ - top shelf Armorers like Alexander arms will not ship to NJ no matter - cant say I blame them - lets just say building an AR in a DARK blue state in not "linear" in its logic. Gotta give a nod to Ben at Bison - he knew the ins and outs and was willing to make the effort. If his uppers are half as good as his customer service I'm expecting nice tight groups
hmmm... If parts availability is a concern, I would have thought .300 BLK would be a much better option than 6.8, considering the only part that's different from 5.56 is the barrel. Same BCG, same capacity in same mags. 6.8 is a great option though, I'm sure you'll be happy with it.
Yep - first build was 556 - mostly Stag - great little carbine - so much fun to shoot - but I'm finding AR's are like martinis -the first one's good but the second is always better! Decided on 6.8 - mostly due to availability of parts and it has a bit more reach. -- but would not be surprised if a 300 found it's way into the locker before too long. - I'll let you know how it goes - if you're interested --slainté mhath
Precisely! ; )
So that's what I should do w/ all those MSC catalogs I have lying around...
I assume you already have an AR chambered in 5.56. (If not, that should definitely be your choice.) If so, 6.5 Grendel is a great long-distance cartridge, so if you intend to shoot at 500+ regularly with your next build, that would be a good option. For close quarters or home defense, .300 BLK is the way to go. The supersonic loads back a wallop, an Hornady's .300 Whisper loads are nasty stuff.
thanks for the posting the vid - collecting intel b4 starting a new build and was thinking 6.8 .300 or even 6.5 grendel- NJ does not allow suppressors so I think the 300 @subsonic without is not worth the effort - anyway - parts are so scarce it may be all academic -
But look at what I was replying to: .458 SOCOM. Compared to .300 BLK, .458 SOCOM is the unicorn, by far. You're right, currently .300 BLK (and .300 Whisper) is tough to find and pricey. I'm running my 5.56's and .308 ARs at the range until things normalize again, no doubt, but my home defense AR is still a .300 BLK with a mag full of Hornady .300 Whisper 110gr V-Max.
If I'm not putting a suppressor on it, and have a 16"+ barrel, I'd rather buy a dedicated 7.62x39 upper.
.300 blackout is almost impossible to find right now and is extremely expensive. more expensive than match grade .308
Love my AR-10, AR-15 and my AR15-22. ;) The .308 definitely is a beefier recoil and packs a punch.
out of those groups, id rather bring the 5.56 into combat with me unless I'm picking them off from over 400 meters unseen, then ill take the 7.62
my opinion of perfect use of the calibers on an AR platform?
5.56: 50-400 meters
.300 Blackout: 0-250 meters
Cool round, just incredibly expensive and tough to find ammo. .300 BLK is more versatile and practical, but SOCOM is definitely a sledgehammer.
'preciate it... always improving...
Damn son, you can shoot.
I'll stick with .458 socom
Wut? Why would NATO invade murka?
Thanks man. Always looking to improve...
That's that shit right there! Excellent shooting technique and safety practices as well
6.8 wigga.... if its good enough for a boar, its good enough to drop a NATO soldier invading America.
Oh yea, that guy can shoot.
Thanks I appreciate the it. And that 2 to the chest 1 to the head was ridiculous!
If you are looking for an all-around rifle, 5.56 is the answer. It is incredibly effective as a defensive round, and any bad things you have heard have probably been armchair jokey speculation. Even the stories you hear from combat are normally guys who aren't willing to admit that they missed. If you get hit with a 5.56 X 45 from inside 400yd, you're probably out of the fight. For close range, I'd try to track down some hollowpoints. (.300 BLK is also pretty awesome.)
Of the three what Is your preferred weapon. What does kberg prefer? I'm looking at getting a defensive rifle for shtf, hunting, and target shooting. I was set on a 5.56 but started reading bad things about the effectiveness as a defensive round. Any info will help. Cool vid btw!
To be honest, I'd say the .300 BLK is probably going to be the better option. Better energy delivery in supersonic loads, subsonic ammo options with no change to weapon system, and same capacity in the same magazines as 5.56, AND the supersonic loads are effective out to 500. Can't see much that would pull anyone towards 6.8 over .300 BLK.
I wish someone more important than me would just adopt the 6.8 (SPC)-(S)uper (P)erfect (C)artridge already! Magpul is supposed to be working on a (30) Round Mag for the 6.8? Thats a start!
I just hope you are a kid.
Momentum is mass times speed, energy is 1/2 mass x speed¨2.
A slow bullet like a .45 has relatively high momentum compared to it's kinetic energy, while a fast light bullet like the 5.56 has a very high amount of kinetic energy and little momentum.
You'd be correct if the 7.62 cartridge we were testing was the 7.62 X 39 (AK-47 round), but this is the 7.62 X 51 NATO, which is more accurate, less affected by wind, and has greater effective range than both the 7.62 X 39 and the 5.56 X 45, as well as the 6.8.
please forgive me if i say some shit considering that I love and study about guns however in my country I just can´t have it now... so I´ve never shot in my life... but I have studied a lot...
about the comment... I would say that ACR is a fantastic weapon in a combat situation considering that you can use 6.8 and if you´re ammo out you can adapt it to 7.62...
That's a pretty expansive question... It depends entirely on the application. I personally would stay away from 6.8 because ammo availability is not good. Other than that, if you're actually going to be shooting on full auto, ammo cost, mag capacity and recoil all become major factors, making 5.56 and 7.62 X 39 much more attractive than 7.62 X 51. It all comes down to application: "What am I going to use this for?"
I believed the 7.62*39 carried more momentum, but the 6.8 had a little more energy (over 2400 joules with some loads).
Numbers aside, if considering only the ertridge, not the platform (ar-15, ak, etc), which would you pick? Is it possible to be accurate on full auto with anything biger than the 5.56?
IMO that 6.8spc is the perfect round. the .223 works, but its kinda small. the .308 could be easily considered overkill. the 6.8 is a nice and very effective medium between the two
thanks for the tip i was always wondering that
Good question, and I would say that they are actually somewhat similar; most effective in CQB scenarios. The 6.8 would be more accurate at distance, and the 7.62x39 has a bit more energy. If you take into consideration the availability of ammo or a replacement primary weapon to utilize your ammo in the case of a catastrophic failure to your primary, the 7.62X39 wins handily.
6.8 all the way.
which is more effective in a combat situation; 7.62x39 or 6.8 spc?
The 6.5 works well out of a 16 inch, but I don't know about the shorter barrels. I would suspect that it would be close to the 6.8, but that you would get more of a muzzle flash from the unspent powder, seeing as you can gain noticeable increases in velocity and energy in a 20 inch over the 6.8. But the 6.8 is truly a wonderful SBR round; it's just that some manufacturers have had troubling getting it to shoot accurately, while also controlling the pressure.
The 6.5 seems to be the best chambering for an AR-15 that will be used for long range shooting. One thing I don't know is whether it runs well out of a 14.5 or 16" barrel, or if 18 - 20" is critical for making the best use. I know the 6.8 is much more CQB-oriented and 16" is as much barrel as it was designed to use... much like .300 AAC.
The AR-10 is a whole other beast with an entirely different expanse of rounds, being a short-action major caliber design. My point was simply to point out that, for medium game, anti-personnel and target usage, the 6.5 gets a LOT done with little effort. For it's age, the .308 is a heck of a round, though, and I am a huge fan of the SA-58 and M1A families: weighty with a lot of muzzle blast, but very good all the same.
aye aye aye...You had me 'till the .308 comparison. 6.5 and .308 have similar "velocities" at 1k (~1200ft/s) with the .308 pushing and additional 50gr of mass. In other words, the .308 delivers nearly as much energy at 1k as the 6.5 AND the 5.56. But to your point, yes, again, at distance, the 6.5 is an overachiever. Probably the best option for the long range shooter in the AR-15 platform... but not AR-10.
Well, thanks for the video! ;P. But I'd argue that the 6.5 is superior to the 6.8 in almost all ways: lower pressure, inherently more accurate, higher energy potential, flatter trajectory and superior wind resistance and energy retention. Interestingly, past 1k yards, it surpasses most .308 loads in energy, in spite of it being a much shorter and lower pressure loading. It's case tapering also provides for more reliable feeding, and with only ~5 round loss from conventional mags.
Oh, man... If you are a reloader, you've GOT to look into .300 blackout. You can use surplus 7.62 X 51 projectiles and old 5.56mm brass to make it!
I haven't heard of that actually... and I reload my own ammo! lol! That would be a great video!
Thanks for the comment. It always comes down to application: Do you want a Patrol Rifle, a Single-Action Sniper System, a Close Quarters Rifle? If you haven't looked much at the new(er) .300 AAC blackout, I think that is an even better replacement candidate for the 5.56. Different loads for different applications with no change in mag capacity, and very little change in weight. We might be doing another video including that caliber soon; so far, I really like shooting it.
haha.. Yeah, lots of comments from folks wanting us to throw that in the mix for the next video. The 6.8 is gone and we have a .300 AAC Blackout instead, but still don't have an AR chambered in 6.5 Grendel. 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel are somewhat similar, but the 6.5 Grendel has some advantages over the 6.8 when it comes to long range shooting. Good cartridge, though, wouldn't mind having one. Thanks for the comment!
*cough* 6.5 Grendel *cough*
I think if you want to be realistic, the 308 would be just to heavy to lug around. The 5.56 has some power issues, but is very light weight with great accuracy out to a certain distance. I like the 6.8;I will just be honest about that. I think the U.S. military should look more into the 6.8. I'm sure it's heavier than the 5.56, but will be a little lighter than the 7.62 and have great range.
Thanks J... Just picked up a couple more AR's recently, so should be knocking out a new one soon with the .300 Blackout. Pretty cool round for the AR.
Still love watching this video
I got my 5.56 :)
I'm from the same part of the country... actually, the other dude in this video grew up knowing Jon Cena's little brother.
I appreciate the M14, for sure, but there really is nothing left that an M14 does better than a modern, quality gas-piston AR chambered in 7.62X51. The AR platform has come a very long way. Capacity, accuracy, weight, muzzle control and reliability have all tipped. That's not a knock on the M14 at all (it was used years after it's decommission by sniper teams), but the SR-25 and P308 are examples of possibly the perfect all around big-bore battle rifles.
Actually, the trigger was one of the only run-of-the-mill parts on that build... Just a standard mil-spec single stage. Might have had a polish-job though, as it was pretty crisp.
What trigger in he running in the 5.56?
Thanks for the comment. We should have a few more videos coming soon.
great video! i like the fact that you simply tested ans showed results. i like a good test without bias!
Good job Sir. Looks like some pretty good muzzle control on all three rifles. Keep the vids coming.
"Mine!" I like that!
Fair point, but these firearms were designed for combat / assault, not hunting / target shooting. Many states use this as an excuse to restrict their access by citizens and redefine the crux of the 2nd Amendment (security & freedom). I've never shared the opinion that semantics will solve this disconnect, and that more attention should be paid to the fact that responsible citizens have a constitutional right to own high-capacity, high-powered, tactical firearms, whatever you decide to call them.
I think 6.8 and .300BLK are good options for hog and deer in an AR. .308 will obviously do the job, but might be overkill, and it'd be heavy to lug around.
which of the 3 do you think would be better for deer and hog hunting im not to much of a fan when it comes to the bolt action
flame war INCOMING!!!!
shouldn't you be off somewhere fiddling with your sub compact pistol grip?